Detail: http://zenith.homelinux.net/cotc/viewcase.php?cfj=3136 ============================== CFJ 3136 ============================== If and when the Victory Announcement in the same message that created this CFJ self-ratifies, if the rules regarding victory have not changed since, then ais523 will Win the Game. ======================================================================== Caller: ais523 Judge: Pavitra Judgement: ======================================================================== History: Called by ais523: 12 Dec 2011 07:26:43 GMT Assigned to Pavitra: 14 Dec 2011 00:52:52 GMT ======================================================================== Caller's Arguments: First off, the Victory Announcement is unambiguously correct; CFJ 1980 is a turtle (the definition of "turtle" is the same as the definition of "tortoise" that was involved in the last win involving that CFJ), and has been so for more than a week (regardless of whether you consider it to have been a turtle before turtles were defined ora not; that's an interesting question, but one that doesn't AFAICT affect this case). Multiple Victory Announcements describing the same victory condition are all correct, according to rule 2343; the only potential reason why this might not lead to a win is that you don't gain a win if the person named has already won via the same events. Now, it's true that I've already got a win indirectly from CFJ 1980, but rule 2358, which currently defines the victory condition in question, doesn't use the same definition as the current rule. The win by paradox rule at the time of the original rule was (the since-repealed) rule 2110/5, which grants a win to the initiator of a tortoise upon a win announcement that the tortoise has been a tortoise for no greater than four and no less than two weeks. In other words, the win was granted in response to making a certain correct statement, and the only reason the CFJ was relevant was that the statement would only be correct if the CFJ were judged UNDECIDABLE. Meanwhile, the current rule requires the CFJ to have been a turtle for only one week (a difference in the conditions already), and the Victory Condition itself is satisfied platonically, not pragmatically (although wins are pragmatic in the current ruleset, at least that Victory Condition is platonic). Thus, the tortoise-based win and turtle-based win, while similar, are not based on the same events (a one-week turtle is not the same event as a statement about a two-week tortoise, and even if both definitions existed at the same time, it would be possible to achieve the first but not the second). In other words, I recommend judging this CFJ TRUE. ======================================================================== Caller's Evidence: The next sentence of this message is a Victory Announcement, and this sentence serves to explicitly label it as a Victory Announcement. ais523 has satisfied the Victory Condition of Paradox (for CFJ 1980). the fact that CFJ 1980 was initiated by ais523 and has had a judgement of UNDECIDABLE for several years now the old ruleset archived at ======================================================================== Gratuitous Arguments by omd: "won via the same events" is an inherently vague statement and is clearly intended to be interpreted generally; only a moron in a hurry would think you have not won via the same events. ========================================================================