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Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 02:49:47 EST5
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From: kelly@poverty.bloomington.in.us (Kelly Martin)
To: nomic-official@teleport.com
Subject: OFF: Final Judgement of CFJ 755
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Status: RO

======================================================================
		      FINAL JUDGEMENT OF CFJ 755
	   (Rule 1442/0 must be interpreted such that,...)
======================================================================

  Final Judgement:  TRUE

  Judgement of the Clerk of the Courts:  TRUE
  Judgement of the Justiciar:            TRUE
  Judgement of the pro-Speaker:		 FALSE

  Clerk of the Courts:  Kelly
  Justiciar:		Steve
  Speaker:		elJefe	  Delegate:  TAL

  Judgement:  FALSE

  Judge:   Vlad

  Eligible to Judge: 
	Andre, Blob, Coren, Dave Bowen, Chuck, Elde, Einstein,
	Jeffrey, KoJen, Michael, Oerjan, Pascal, Steve, Vanyel, Vlad,
	TAL, Kelly, Swann

  Caller:  JonRock

  Barred:  elJefe

  Scorekeepor:
    Vlad receives 5 Points for speedy Judgement.
    Steve receives 3 Points for timely Judgement
    Kelly receives 3 Points for timely Judgement
    elJefe receives 5 Points for speedy Judgement
    Vlad must return 5 Points for being overturned

----------------------------------------------------------------------

History:
  Called Tue, 21 Mar 1995 15:53:28 -0500 by JonRock
  Assigned Tue, 21 Mar 1995 21:30 UTC to Vlad
  Judged FALSE Wed, 22 Mar 1995 21:38:13 -0600 (CST) by Vlad
  --> Vlad receives 5 Points 
  Appealed Thu, 23 Mar 1995 00:55:19 -0500 by JonRock
  Appealed Thu, 23 Mar 1995 00:31:36 -0600 (CST) by Vanyel
  Appealed Thu, 23 Mar 1995 20:39:35 +1000 (EST) by Blob
  Assigned Thu, 23 Mar 1995 11:30 UTC to Steve as Justiciar
  Assigned Thu, 23 Mar 1995 11:30 UTC to Kelly as CotC
  Assigned Sat, 25 Mar 1995 03:15 UTC to TAL as pro-Speaker
  Judged TRUE Sun, 26 Mar 1995 01:27:37 +1100 (EST) by Steve as Justiciar
  --> Steve receives 3 Points
  Judged TRUE Mon, 27 Mar 95 06:09:44 EST5 by Kelly as CotC
  --> Kelly receives 3 Points
  Judged FALSE Mon, 27 Mar 95 16:59:35 SET by TAL as pro-Speaker
  --> elJefe receives 5 Points
  --> Vlad loses 5 Points

======================================================================

Statement:

"Rule 1442/0 must be interpreted such that, provided a player does not
already possess 5 Extra Votes, that player can gain Extra Votes up to
the number of proposals voted on in a single vote message sent to the
Speaker, by voting ABSTAIN on any or all of them."

I bar elJefe from Judging this statement.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Arguments:

If the voting player does not have 5 EVs at the time of a message to the
Speaker containing more than one vote, then it is certainly the case
that for any single vote contained in that message that the player does
not have 5 EVs at the time of the casting of that vote.  Thus any vote
of ABSTAIN does satisfy the criterion for creation of an EV for that
player, and that player will receive that EV when the results of the
voting on that Proposal are published.  QED.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

References:

Rule 1442/0 (Mutable, MI=1)
Extra Votes

      There is a Currency called Extra Votes. The Recordkeepor for
      this Currency is the Speaker.  Possession of an Extra Vote
      entitles a Player to cast an extra Vote on a Proposal of eir
      choice. Extra Votes may be traded between Players, but they may
      not be owned by Groups.

      An Extra Vote is created for a Player whenever that Player casts 
      a vote of ABSTAIN on any Proposal, and that Player does not
      already possess 5 Extra Votes. However, the Player does not
      receive the Extra Vote created for em by the casting of a vote
      of ABSTAIN on a Proposal until the results of the voting on that
      Proposal are published. An Extra Vote is destroyed whenever the
      Player who possesses it uses it to cast a Vote on a Proposal.

      Provided that they possess at least one Extra Vote, Players
      may use a maximum of one Extra Vote per proposal to cast an
      extra Vote on that Proposal. Extra Votes are cast in the same
      manner as Votes, as described in other Rules.


======================================================================

Judgment: FALSE

Arguments: It is unfortunate that JonRock phrased his CFJ the
way he did, because I think his general argument is sound. 
The problem is that a "single vote message" may contain votes
on two batches of proposals distributed at different times. A
perfect example would be the last two batches, which I voted on in a 
single message. The first batch's Voting Period will end first, 
possibly creating Extra Votes which would prevent the gaining of
EV's from ABSTAIN Votes in the second batch. Thus JonRock's statement
does not hold in all cases.

Vlad

======================================================================

Judgement of the Justiciar:  TRUE

I overturn Judge Vlad's ruling and Judge that the Statement is TRUE.

Vlad's argument misreads JonRock's Statement. Given the wording of that
Statement, the issue is not whether there is any possible case where
a Player *cannot* gain EVs as JonRock suggests, but whether there is
any possible case where e *can* gain them. The point is, as JonRock
says and I feel sure the other Justices will agree, that EVs under
Rule 1442/0 are created at the time of voting, but not distributed
until the the time of publication. Hence, a Player like Michael, who
did as a matter of fact abstain on all 35 of the Proposals 1499-1533,
does in fact receive 35 EVs, since at the time he voted he did not
possess any EVs at all.

======================================================================

Judgement of the Clerk of the Courts:  TRUE

I judge this CFJ to be TRUE, overturning Vlad's original decision.

Rule 1442/0 is clear in the matter of the timing of the creation and
awarding of Extra Votes.  The Vote is created when the Vote is Cast,
and it is Game Custom that a Vote is Cast at the moment the Vote is
received by the Speaker.  However, the Extra Vote thus created is not
given to the Player until the results are published, so a Player might
have any number of Extra Votes in "abeyance" during the period between
the moment e casts a Vote of ABSTAIN and the end of the Voting Period
of that Proposal.  These Votes are _not_ in the possession of the
Voter (it is unclear exactly what Nomic Entity _is_ in possession of
them, but I do not believe that this issue is of importance here).
Therefore, the simple act of casting a Vote of ABSTAIN does _not_
immediately increase a Player's holding of Extra Votes, and therefore
a Player is not limited in the number of such "virtual" Extra Votes e
might accrue (as long as e does not have 5 or more actual Extra
Votes).

As an aside, I do not see how Judge Vlad's argument applies in any way
whatsoever.  As long as the vote is cast prior to the receipt of any
Extra Votes which would cause the Player to have 4 or more actual
Extra Votes, the Player does accrue the Virtual Extra Votes to which e
is entitled, even if e does vote upon Proposals with differing Voting
Periods in a single message.

Kelly Martin
Clerk of the Courts

======================================================================

Judgement of the pro-Speaker: FALSE

Arguments:

It seems that it all comes down to the word `possess'. Can the Player
for whom the Extra Vote is created when e casts eir vote, be
considered to *possess* that Extra Vote as soon as the time of its
creation?

This delegate-Justice, not particularly known for his fluency in
English, is of the opinion that the answer is yes.

It is certain that the Extra Vote created, exists between the time
the Player casts eir Vote and the time the Voting Results are
published. If it is not the Player who owns this newly created
Extra Vote, who does?

The Extra Vote is a Currency and according to Rule 611
`No non-player Nomic entity may own Currencies except as provided for
in the Rules.' As the Rules are silent, I may exclude any other
Nomic Entity as temporary possessor of the Extra Vote.

Nevertheless, between the time of it's creation and the time of
publication of the Voting Results the Recordkeepor of the EV is
obliged to keep track of it, that is, attribute it to somebody?

Logically, it is the Player which casted the Extra Vote, who possesses
it.


References:

Rule 611/0 (Mutable, MI=1)
Currencies: Who May Own Currencies

      Players may own any type of Currency.  No non-player Nomic
      entity may own Currencies except as provided for in the Rules.
      The number of each type of Currency owned by each player or
      other Nomic entity must be non-negative, and must be an integer.

      This rule applies to Currencies in general, and thus defers to
      rules for specific Currencies.

Rule 1442/0 (Mutable, MI=1)
Extra Votes

      There is a Currency called Extra Votes. The Recordkeepor for
      this Currency is the Speaker.  Possession of an Extra Vote
      entitles a Player to cast an extra Vote on a Proposal of eir
      choice. Extra Votes may be traded between Players, but they may
      not be owned by Groups.

      An Extra Vote is created for a Player whenever that Player casts
      a vote of ABSTAIN on any Proposal, and that Player does not
      already possess 5 Extra Votes. However, the Player does not
      receive the Extra Vote created for em by the casting of a vote
      of ABSTAIN on a Proposal until the results of the voting on that
      Proposal are published. An Extra Vote is destroyed whenever the
      Player who possesses it uses it to cast a Vote on a Proposal.

      Provided that they possess at least one Extra Vote, Players
      may use a maximum of one Extra Vote per proposal to cast an
      extra Vote on that Proposal. Extra Votes are cast in the same
      manner as Votes, as described in other Rules.

======================================================================
--
kelly martin                                 <kelly@poverty.bloomington.in.us>

       I have been told that when a large group of people believe in a
     fantasy, it is called a culture.  When a small group believes, it is
      called a cult.  When two people believe in a fantasy, it is called
	 love; and when one person believes, it is called psychosis.