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	( id AA05877; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:18:11 +0100
From: Andre Engels <>
Subject: OFF: CFJ 845 Judgement: TRUE
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 10:18:11 MET
Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85]
Precedence: bulk
Status: RO


"Rule 1472 should be interpreted such, that Class I and Class II
 transfers take place at the time that the requirement of them taking 
 place starts."


Judge:		Vlad (defaulted)		
Judgement:	TRUE

Eligible:	Chuck, dcuman, favor, Jtael, KoJen, Steve, Wes, Zefram

Not Eligible:	
Caller:		Andre
Barred:		Kelly, Morendil
On Hold:	Blob, Dave Bowen, elJefe
1005:		Michael, Murphy, Pascal, Swann, Vanyel
Defaulted:	Vlad

Eligible:	Blob, Chuck, favor, Steve, Vanyel, Zefram

Not Eligible:	
Caller:		Andre
Barred:		Kelly, Morendil	
On Hold:	Dave Bowen
1005:		KoJen, Michael, Pascal, Swann, Wes

Effects:	Vlad gains 3 Blots for defaulting
		Vlad is not eligible to act as a Judge
		Steve gains 5 Points for speedy Judgement


  Called by Andre, 15 January 1996, 13:27 MET
  Ineffectively assigned to Chuck, 15 January 1996, 13:59 MET
  Non-Judgement delivered by Chuck, 16 January 1996, 05:58 MET
  Assigned to Vlad, 23 January 1995, 12:53 MET
  Defaulted by Vlad, 30 January 1996, 12:53 MET
  Assigned to Steve, 2 February 1996, 15:04 MET
  Judged TRUE by Steve, 5 February 1996, 06:04 MEt


Requested Injunction:

If this statement is judged TRUE, I would like to ask the Judge to make
an Injunction as per Rule 789.

Relevant Rules:


Reasoning & Arguments:

This CFJ is on the interpretation of the first line of the last paragraph
of Rule 1472: "Class I and Class II transfers take place at the time they
are required to take place."

Morendil interprets this differently, namely as "Class I and Class II
transfers take place at the time the Rules declare them to take place." 
In my opinion both are grammatically correct. However, my interpretation 
has not only the advantage of following Game Custom, but also of having 
meaning. With this last I mean, that, if Morendils interpretation is taken,
the line doesn't have a sensible meaning at all, since it only forces 
things which are forced to happen anyway.


Decision & Reasoning Judge:

Non-Judge Chuck has already delivered a non-Judgement on this CFJ.
Since this non-Judgement already argues the truth of the Statement
as effectively as anything I might write on the subject, I feel that
what I can and should do is simply offer Chuck's non-Judgement as my
Official Judgement, thus bestowing upon Chuck's fine argument the
benefit of Officialdom which it clearly deserves.

The non-Judgement by Chuck was:

It is my belief that Andre is not CotC, hence I am not Judge
on this CFJ.  To deliver something labelled as a Judgement
would probably be in violation of TIA, thus I do not deliver
a Judgement.

I believe this statement to be TRUE.

This CFJ hinges on the meaning of the sentence in Rule 1472:

      Class I and Class II transfers take place at the time they are
      required to take place.

But, many Class I and Class II transfers have no time at which they
are explicitly required.  In such cases, what does this sentence

I will use, as an example, the fee for disowning a Proposal imposed
by Rule 1451, due to the obvious practical importance of this case.
But it should be noted that the statement does not mention this
particular case; and even though I reference Rule 1451, the same
argument applies to all such transfers.

Rule 1451 states that a Player disowning a Proposal loses 5 points,
but specifies no time at which this takes place.

CFJ 721 and 722 are of some interest here.  They both address similar
statements, regarding the alleged violation by then-Registrar KoJen
in announcing the vacancy in a few Offices.  Both Judges, Vanyel
and Down with 815!, ruled that because Rule 790 imposed no time
limit on the Registrar's duty, he could not be said to have violated
Rule 790.

However, in spite of the fact that a Registrar could not be convicted
of violating that part of 790, and that that part of 790 is therefore
unenforceable, the _de jure_ requirement for the Registrar to
announce the vacancy remains.

Morendil may well be right in stating that there is no time at
which the penalty for disowning to take place.  *However*, there
is no justification for saying that the transfer therefore does
not take place.  This is, plain and simple, a _non sequitur_.
There is no logic to his statement that because that sentence
in 1472 does not specify a time at which the transfer takes place,
it does not take place at all.  I find that this sentence in Rule
1367 is also interesting:

      There shall exist a subset of the Patent Titles known as

Not relevant, you say?  Au contraire!  Like the sentence in question
in Rule 1472, it *also* does not specify a time at which the
disowning penalty takes place.  In fact, there are several thousand
such sentences in the Ruleset.  Yet no one claims that *these* imply
the transfer does not take place.  Why should the sentence in
Rule 1472 be any different?  It is not.

Rule 1472 is, at worst, silent on the time at which the disowning
penalty takes place.  But this in no way means that the penalty
does not take place at all!  There are numerous other Rules
which also are silent on the time at which the disowning penalty
takes place.

In fact, no Rule requires the disowning penalty to take place
at any given time.  Such rules--those that require point changes
without specifying the time at which those changes take place--
go all the way to the beginning of Agora.  In fact, in the
initial Ruleset, 5 types of point changes are specified.  For
only one of these is the time of the point change specified.
Yet, somehow, these changes took place nonetheless--at the time
at which the requirement of them taking place started.  Thus,
there are 2 1/2 years of Game Custom supporting the interpretation
that, when the Rules are silent on the time at which a currency
transfer takes place, it takes place when the requirement
of that transfer starts.  This non-Judgement supports that
interpretation as well, as I choose to use the same criteria
that actual Judges are required to apply: when the Rules are
silent, Game Custom, the Spirit of the Game, and past Judgements
should be considered.

As an aside, I note that Andre violated Rule 789 by not providing
a list of Relevant Rules with this CFJ.  This has been in the past
interpreted somewhat liberally, in that either a list explicitly
labelled "Relevant Rules" or Rules cited as evidence can
be considered to be the list of Relevant Rules.  However, Andre
has done neither.

<Remark by Caller & CotC Andre: I did give a list of Relevant Rules; 
 I forgot to add this list when assigning the Judgement.>

Evidence cited:
1.  Rule 1472 *
2.  Rule 1451 *
3.  CFJ 721 +
4.  CFJ 722 +
5.  Rule 790 *
6.  Rule 1367 *
7.  Initial Ruleset *
8.  Rule 789 *

* Available on Chuck's WWW Rules pages
+ Available via Vanyel's nomic-request server