======================================================================
                               CFJ 923

"Player favor either did not legally require a transfer of one P-Note
 in eir message to the Promotor herein reproduced as Exhibit A, or if
 e did so that transfer did not cause a Petition Fee to be paid."

======================================================================

Judge:        Swann
Justices:     Michael (C), Steve (S), Antimatter (J)

Judgement:    FALSE

Eligible:     Andre, Antimatter, Blob, Chuck, Crito, Elde, elJefe,
              (favor), General Chaos, Harlequin, KoJen, Michael, Murphy,
              Steve, Swann, Zefram

Not eligible:
Caller:       Morendil
Barred:       -
Disqualified: Vanyel, favor
On hold:      OerJan

======================================================================

History:
  Called by Morendil, Thu, 8 May 1997 01:40:32 +0100
  Assigned to Swann, Mon, 19 May 1997 09:08:36 +0100
  Judged FALSE, Wed, 21 May 1997 17:01:40 -0400 (EDT)
  Published, Thu, 22 May 1997 09:09:28 +0100
  Appealed by Morendil, Thu, 22 May 1997 07:50:38 +0200
  Appealed by General Chaos, Thu, 22 May 1997 12:11:24 -0500
  Appealed by Oerjan, Sat, 24 May 1997 03:58:14 +0200 (MET DST)
  Appealed by Crito, Fri, 23 May 1997 22:22:30 -0400
  Appeals process begins, Wed, 28 May 1997 11:03:40 +0100
  Steve SUSTAINS, Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:21:17 +1000 (EST)
  Michael SUSTAINS, Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:31:52 +0100
  favor defaults
  Antimatter selected as new Justice, Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:09:29 +0100
  Antimatter SUSTAINS, Mon, 9 Jun 1997 17:13:15 -0800
  Published, Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:15:18 +0100

======================================================================

Appeals decisions:

Speaker:

In the matter of the Appeal of CFJ 923, my ruling is to SUSTAIN
Swann's Judgement.

It might be thought that R1527 ('Timing of Multiple Events in One
Message') conflicts with R1596, and takes precedence over it, by
virtue both of lower Number, and of the deference clause in R1596.
But the appearance of conflict between the two Rules is illusory.
R1527 states that:

      Whenever a message contains more than one notification, report,
      or other communication in which the Rules place some legal
      significance, the communications in that message shall be taken
      to have been sent sequentially, separated by infinitesimal
      increments of time, in the order which they appear in the
      message.

Now for our purposes, we can regard Favor's messages as containing two
communications of legal significance. The second is uncontroversially
a Proposal submission. We are concerned here with the first: what is
it? I quote from the Evidence section:

>Evidence:
>
>Player favor's message to the Public Forum :
>
>[Headers, introductory material omitted]
>
>OK, various people said they'd be in favor of this, so here it is.  I
>hereby transfer one of my measly five P-Notes to the Bank for the
>purposes of Proposing this here thing (I do so immediately *after*
>submitting the Proposal, as required by 1702).

This seems to me a special, but still quite familiar, kind of
transfer: a delayed transfer. Now, under most circumstances, R1598
('Currency Transfers Mandated by Players') makes delayed transfers
illegal. So strictly speaking, Swann is wrong to assert that R1596
allows Players to specify later times (than the time of reporting) for
transfers to take place. R1596 tries to allow this, but in almost all
cases R1598 prohibits it. But in this case we have a rare
exception. For Favor's delay is only infinitesimal, and according to
game custom, events separated by infinitesimal amounts of time happen,
in some sense, at the same time, (although in a particular order). At
any rate, Favor's delay does not violate R1598 because it does not
require the P-note transfer to take place at some time other than the
time at which Favor reported it.

What we have then in Favor's message, is this: a perfectly legal
delayed transfer, followed (an infinitesimal amount of time later, in
accordance with R1527) by a perfectly legal Proposal submission.  And
the effect of this message is to submit the Proposal, and then,
immediately after (an infinitesimal amount of time later, I suppose it
must be) pay the Petition Fee for it. So the Statement is FALSE, as
Swann Judged,

Speaker Steve

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Clerk of the Courts:

I SUSTAIN the Judgement in CFJ 923

Justice Steve's decision sets the standard here:

His close reading of the rules relating to timing make it clear that
one can delay Currency Transfers within a message so that the Transfer
can happen after any other part of the message.  This makes favor's
attempt to make a delayed Currency Transfer successful, and the
statement of the CFJ FALSE.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

pro-Justiciar (Antimatter):

I vote to SUSTAIN the original judgement, because I, frankly, have no
idea what the truth is, but both Michael and Steve voted to sustain,
and they probably know more about this than I do. Yes, that is very
flimsy reasoning.

======================================================================

Judgement: FALSE

Reasons and arguments:

The entire argument here rests on a question of timing, and if it
occurred that favor transferred the P-Note after eir proposal
submission, as required.  The relevant Rule here is not Rule 1527,
timing of Multiple Events, but Rule 1596, which covers Currency
Transfers in general.  Specifically, the following clause from that
Rule;

"Such a transfer takes place at the time specified by the Entity
 which requires the transfer, or, if no time is specified, at the
 time when the Entity first begins to require the transfer."

I take this as permitting Players to specify later times for such
transfers to take place, thus allowing favor to specify a later time
for a P-Note transfer.

======================================================================

Evidence:

Rule 1596/1 (Power=1)
Currency Transfers, generally

      The Rules have the power to require the transfer of Currencies;
      no other Entity also has this power unless explicitly granted it
      by the Rules, and then only to the extent granted by the Rules.

      No Entity other than the Rules themselves has the power to
      require any transfer which would result in the Treasury being
      transferred from containing a negative quantity of the Currency
      transferred.

      Whenever an Entity requires a transfer of Currencies to take
      place, the transfer takes place as required, provided that the
      Entity which is requiring the transfer is permitted by the Rules
      to require that transfer, and provided that the transfer is
      otherwise permitted by the Rules.

      Such a transfer takes place at the time specified by the Entity
      which requires the transfer, or, if no time is specified, at the
      time when the Entity first begins to require the transfer.

      This Rule takes precedence over any Rule which would permit or
      require a transfer prohibited by this Rule.  When another Rule
      would prohibit some transfer permitted by this Rule, this Rule
      defers to that Rule with respect to that transfer.

======================================================================

(Caller's) Arguments:

Reasoning:

Player favor _first_ attempted to make the transfer, _then_ submitted
eir Proposal, in the same message. But Rule 1702 requires the transfer
to be made after the Proposal is submitted. E apparently anticipated
this would be a problem, since e stated that this transfer was to
occur at a later time, namely after eir Proposal submission. But 1598
states that a Player-mandated transfer must be reported at the same
time that it is effected, any other requirement making the transfer
illegal. Thus the conclusions of the Statement.

Evidence:

Player favor's message to the Public Forum :

[Headers, introductory material omitted]

OK, various people said they'd be in favor of this, so here it is.  I
hereby transfer one of my measly five P-Notes to the Bank for the
purposes of Proposing this here thing (I do so immediately *after*
submitting the Proposal, as required by 1702).

[Proposal text, rest of message omitted]

Rule 1598/1 (Power=1)
Currency Transfers Mandated by Players

      Players are empowered to require the transfer of Currencies,
      subject to the following limitations:

      a) the Player requiring the transfer is the Executor of the
         Owner of the Treasury from which the Currency is being
         transferred,
      b) the Player requiring the transfer reports the transfer to the
         Recordkeepor of the Currency transferred, and
      c) the Player requires the transfer to take place at the time e
         reports it.

      No Player-required transfer may take place at any time other
      than the time at which it is reported.

      This Rule takes precedence over any Rule which would allow a
      Player to require a transfer prohibited by this Rule.

Rule 1702/0 (Power=1)
Petition Fee for Proposals

      All Proposals other than Disinterested Proposals have associated
      with them a Petition fee.  This fee must be paid to the Bank
      between the submission of the Proposal and its distribution,
      otherwise the Proposal shall become Disinterested, as specified
      in other Rules.

      This fee must be made by sending a message to the Promotor,
      unambiguously specifying the Proposal whose fee is being paid,
      and ordering the transfer of the required P-Notes specifically
      for that Proposal.  The Player transferring these P-Notes must
      have at least as many P-Notes as e is attempting to transfer, or
      no transfer of P-Notes is made, nor is the fee paid.

      The Petition fee for any Proposal is one P-Note unless another
      Rule specifies a higher fee.  This rule takes precedence
      over any Rule that would require a lower fee, no fee, or a fee
      paid in Currency other than P-Notes, for Proposals that are not
      Disinterested.

Rule 1527/2 (Power=1)
Timing of Multiple Events in One Message

      Whenever a message contains more than one notification, report,
      or other communication in which the Rules place some legal
      significance, the communications in that message shall be taken
      to have been sent sequentially, separated by infinitesimal
      increments of time, in the order which they appear in the
      message.

======================================================================